First all-women nuclear alert in Minuteman Squadron

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Re: First all-women nuclear alert in Minuteman Squadron

Postby keskiyo on Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:47 am

Every time I hear someone say "Well, in the flying world..." I want to punt a kitten.
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Re: First all-women nuclear alert in Minuteman Squadron

Postby toad on Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:42 pm

keskiyo wrote:Every time I hear someone say "Well, in the flying world..." I want to punt a kitten.


And I don't fault you for that, its two different worlds!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: First all-women nuclear alert in Minuteman Squadron

Postby PASMAN II on Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:50 pm

I'm sure you guys will feel better about brief/debrief stuff when you are getting the $500-600 a month ACP (Alert Continuation Pay)!
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Re: First all-women nuclear alert in Minuteman Squadron

Postby SAC Killer on Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:38 pm

I just have to ask, if it doesn't involve OPSEC, where are these incredibly stupid ideas coming from and why do their prophets think they are good? Yes, I know, HQ, but you know what I really mean.
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Re: First all-women nuclear alert in Minuteman Squadron

Postby DaneTrain on Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:23 am

PASMAN II wrote:I'm sure you guys will feel better about brief/debrief stuff when you are getting the $500-600 a month ACP (Alert Continuation Pay)!


Go on...
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Re: First all-women nuclear alert in Minuteman Squadron

Postby Piquet on Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:24 pm

PASMAN II wrote:I'm sure you guys will feel better about brief/debrief stuff when you are getting the $500-600 a month ACP (Alert Continuation Pay)!


Aviation Career Incentive Pay is actually over $800 a month for those between 14 and 22 years. I never understood why navigators get that........it's not like they bail out and fly for the airlines. The non-rated guys on aircraft get a fraction of that.
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Re: First all-women nuclear alert in Minuteman Squadron

Postby PointSalJim on Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:43 pm

hockey85 wrote:The day of alert will all start by Flight staff and WSCE officers (Weapon School graduates) coming together in what will be called the Mission Planning Cell to prepare everything the crews will need for mission planning. The crews will then arrive for a "Quick Look" briefing and get a down and dirty of everything that will be going on that day.... maintenance, exercises, weather, etc., etc. Once that is complete, crews will then go to the OG Commander's Intent briefing where they will be briefed on the intent for that alert (isn't the intent always deterrence, by means of monitoring status and standing ready for missile launch?) Once they have taken notes on the intent for that alert, the crews will then go and conduct mission planning. The new reg specifically states that it should take a minimum of 90 minutes but nominally will take 3 hours to complete. During this mission planning, we will imitate pilots by using whiteboards, our hands to talk, etc. to demonstrate how the alert is expected to play out. We will have to step study every checklist we could possibly see on alert (which is quite a bit, if not every checklist we have, so I don't know how this was thought out). Once we do that we will have to build an alert plan that we want to execute and then "table fly" (those are the exact terms the new reg uses...table fly) the alert. Once we are satisfied our alert plan is good and is fully built, each crew will then have to individually report into the squadron commander's office, present the plan, and request permission to execute the alert. If it's approved, then we can go on our merry way. If not, we have to start the whole process over.

FE Warren has already started this process to test it out. Everything I here from people there say they hate it and it doesn't make a difference in how alert plays out. It just makes the time at base before alert longer. I think the whole process is silly and won't be beneficial. I have been on plenty of busy and crazy alerts, and no amount of "mission planning" would have made them any easier. We are all properly trained in the MPTs and classrooms and know how to do the job. That should be all that matters. It has worked for ~50 years. Malmstrom and Minot are dreadfully awaiting the implementation of the new mission planning at their wings. I relate this whole process to the whole 3 day alert fiasco that was tried a couple years ago. Crewmembers hate it, it looks good on paper but in practice doesn't really work and is not beneficial. However, we all know how crewmember's opinions are taken. So in the end, it will be fully implemented, thereby decreasing missileer's morale even more with no benefit in the end.


Good grief! That's the most astonishing thing I have read in a long time. It sounds like recent versions of the Federal bureaucracy, but the USAF used to be at least a little immune to its more deadly manifestations.

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Re: First all-women nuclear alert in Minuteman Squadron

Postby JP2323 on Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:05 am

hockey85 wrote:
TerrorOfTucson wrote:hockey85, what is this "mission planning" of which you speak? Assuming OpSec isn't a problem. Why will it take 3 hours? Back in the dark (missile blue) ages, mission planning would be "I'm trained, I got my -1, warm clothes, my crew, and I know how to get to the LCC. I'm ready (if not rarin') to go guard the country."

Bad Sam
Amazed am I, to hear such things.
Glad am I, no longer to do such things


The day of alert will all start by Flight staff and WSCE officers (Weapon School graduates) coming together in what will be called the Mission Planning Cell to prepare everything the crews will need for mission planning. The crews will then arrive for a "Quick Look" briefing and get a down and dirty of everything that will be going on that day.... maintenance, exercises, weather, etc., etc. Once that is complete, crews will then go to the OG Commander's Intent briefing where they will be briefed on the intent for that alert (isn't the intent always deterrence, by means of monitoring status and standing ready for missile launch?) Once they have taken notes on the intent for that alert, the crews will then go and conduct mission planning. The new reg specifically states that it should take a minimum of 90 minutes but nominally will take 3 hours to complete. During this mission planning, we will imitate pilots by using whiteboards, our hands to talk, etc. to demonstrate how the alert is expected to play out. We will have to step study every checklist we could possibly see on alert (which is quite a bit, if not every checklist we have, so I don't know how this was thought out). Once we do that we will have to build an alert plan that we want to execute and then "table fly" (those are the exact terms the new reg uses...table fly) the alert. Once we are satisfied our alert plan is good and is fully built, each crew will then have to individually report into the squadron commander's office, present the plan, and request permission to execute the alert. If it's approved, then we can go on our merry way. If not, we have to start the whole process over.

FE Warren has already started this process to test it out. Everything I here from people there say they hate it and it doesn't make a difference in how alert plays out. It just makes the time at base before alert longer. I think the whole process is silly and won't be beneficial. I have been on plenty of busy and crazy alerts, and no amount of "mission planning" would have made them any easier. We are all properly trained in the MPTs and classrooms and know how to do the job. That should be all that matters. It has worked for ~50 years. Malmstrom and Minot are dreadfully awaiting the implementation of the new mission planning at their wings. I relate this whole process to the whole 3 day alert fiasco that was tried a couple years ago. Crewmembers hate it, it looks good on paper but in practice doesn't really work and is not beneficial. However, we all know how crewmember's opinions are taken. So in the end, it will be fully implemented, thereby decreasing missileer's morale even more with no benefit in the end.


here is how it goes day to day
we show up for mass brief at 8am this includes intel (just some glorified CNN article)weather, maint., ewo, codes, anything that we need for the day, this is no diffrent from the brief we got under the old system. Mass brief is done usually less then one hour then we go to mission planning in the suqadron, we sit around BS for 10 min talk over the maint. and go get the Col. Each MCCC goes over the days activities all in the same room around the table just like we used to do only now its after the mass brief instead of before mass brief.

there no diffrent besides a new crew ORM number we compute or make up either way, the diffrence is we now come in 45 min later, but we leave and hour to two hours later then we used to. 4 years ago when I started crew it was normal to be on the road by 9am, now its normal to be leaving base by 1030

SAC Killer wrote:I'm forced to wonder where that Mission Planning crap came from. Either someone at HQ wanting to make a name for themselves at the expense of the crews or someone who has no clue what MCCs actually do but has authority over them (too often, a pilot).

I saw a lot of dumb things during my years in SAC, but this might top all of them for stupidest. My heart goes out to every missileer who must sit through what is clearly nothing but busy work.


this comes from the new ICBM weapons school grads, who are sent to the wing. There is no job for them, they are here, they get an office and nobody knows what they are supposed to do or what they are here to do, so they make stuff up so that the commander see's them doing something and thinks that their weapson school patch means something to everybody, but in reality all they have done is show up, apparently forget what its like to be on crew and just make our lives harder and filled with more BS by the day.

we have a crew ops desk now that cost a lot of cash to put in and run radio lines to and put in flat screens and we have to call into them when we leave base and show up on site and vice versa. Gen. Alston saw it and why dont you just call TCC, I wanted to laugh so hard becasue thats what everbody has been saying but people need OPR bullets I guess.

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Re: First all-women nuclear alert in Minuteman Squadron

Postby PASMAN II on Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:10 pm

JP, besides the crewdogs, who else in your chain of command is fully certified to go out and pull alert? Squadron Commander? Group Commander? Wing Commander? (And I'm sure that "fully certified" is not the current correct term, but humor me anyway.) It's pretty easy to be a Squadron or Group or Wing Manager-commander (otherwise known as Shoe Clerks). The bullshit flows pretty good when the senior guys don't have to worry about personally dealing with effects of their own bs edicts.
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Re: First all-women nuclear alert in Minuteman Squadron

Postby SAC Killer on Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:26 pm

PASMAN II wrote:JP, besides the crewdogs, who else in your chain of command is fully certified to go out and pull alert? Squadron Commander? Group Commander? Wing Commander? (And I'm sure that "fully certified" is not the current correct term, but humor me anyway.) It's pretty easy to be a Squadron or Group or Wing Manager-commander (otherwise known as Shoe Clerks). The bullshit flows pretty good when the senior guys don't have to worry about personally dealing with effects of their own bs edicts.


Interesting that you are asking the question. Back in my MCCM days I don't think the wing staff types were allowed to pull alerts, because they had more access to MM code materials than the MCCMs. So they were prevented from pulling alert by WSSR. At least that's what I remember, but it's been several decades.
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Re: First all-women nuclear alert in Minuteman Squadron

Postby Scopie on Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:59 pm

Sometime in 1985, the powers that be decided that SQ CCs and Ops Officers had be certified mission ready and pull alerts. I remember giving personalized weapon system classroom training to a couple of O-5s, who weren't at all happy that they had to go back on alert (1 or 2 a month). But I remember that the rationale came from the flying world where this was common. Does anyone else remember this?
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Re: First all-women nuclear alert in Minuteman Squadron

Postby JP2323 on Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:39 pm

PASMAN II wrote:JP, besides the crewdogs, who else in your chain of command is fully certified to go out and pull alert? Squadron Commander? Group Commander? Wing Commander? (And I'm sure that "fully certified" is not the current correct term, but humor me anyway.) It's pretty easy to be a Squadron or Group or Wing Manager-commander (otherwise known as Shoe Clerks). The bullshit flows pretty good when the senior guys don't have to worry about personally dealing with effects of their own bs edicts.


nobody at the 90th beyond the crew pulls alerts, when I first got here, Sq Cmdr and DO pulled 1 alert every 45 days but that went away eventually, I hear the other wings still do the 1 every 45 thing though. The majcom commader although fighting to have the Sq Cmder and DO pull 2 alerts a month and do al the training that crew pulls which would probably rob them of about 100 hrs a month that they should be doing other things, I recently was able to tell the 20th AF commander how I felt about that idea and he likes the 1 every 45 idea though.

I have heard that soon each squadron will get a weapons school grad and they will be put on crew having to pull 2 alerts a month, which would be a big deterrent for me to ever want to go to weapons school.
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Re: First all-women nuclear alert in Minuteman Squadron

Postby PASMAN II on Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:51 am

Can anyone tell me, is there an (attack) flying wing where the Wing & Group & Squadron commanders do NOT fly or pull alerts? Senior leaders not being fully qualified and pulling alerts was one reason why I lost all respect for the senior "Manager-Shoe Clerk-ICBM commanders" many years ago.
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Re: First all-women nuclear alert in Minuteman Squadron

Postby JP2323 on Sat Mar 03, 2012 5:24 am

PASMAN II wrote:Can anyone tell me, is there an (attack) flying wing where the Wing & Group & Squadron commanders do NOT fly or pull alerts? Senior leaders not being fully qualified and pulling alerts was one reason why I lost all respect for the senior "Manager-Shoe Clerk-ICBM commanders" many years ago.

ICBM alerts are'nt flights, we arent flyers....flyers fly becasue they have to meet gates and they continue to fly their whole career they dont step away for 10 years and are then are expected to go on crew and pull alerts. As much as you think a Col. in the field is good, its not good for the crew, somebody has to baby sit them for 24 hrs, they wont be proficient at the job and they wont be helping anybody out sitting out there. Their time can be spent elsewhere, it dosent take a 100 hour a month commitment for a flyer to go sit and have the best pilot in the squadron fly him around, but for a Col. to pull alert he would have 2 alerts a month (4 days gone), T1 (1 day gone), T3/4(1 day gone), a trainer ride (4-5 hrs gone), plus study time for each of the testing event, it dosent take that kind of commitment each month for a flyer to fly.
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Re: First all-women nuclear alert in Minuteman Squadron

Postby PASMAN II on Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:19 pm

JP2323 wrote:ICBM alerts are'nt flights, we arent flyers....flyers fly becasue they have to meet gates and they continue to fly their whole career they dont step away for 10 years and are then are expected to go on crew and pull alerts.


So I guess you are saying the senior leaders who fly are more intelligent than senior ICBM leaders. A senior flyer still has to maintain all his personal "operations" requirements (flying/training/sim/testing,etc) and find time to run an entire wing. Of course they have usually been flying since they were a 2Lt.

JP2323 wrote:As much as you think a Col. in the field is good, its not good for the crew, somebody has to baby sit them for 24 hrs, they wont be proficient at the job and they wont be helping anybody out sitting out there.


I think that you and I are talking about two different senior ICBM leaders. Your example above is probably spot-on.

My position is this: If senior ICBM guys continued to maintain all their "operations" requirements (alerts/training/sim/testing/etc) from 2Lt on, I think they would not be considered such "operational" dumbasses and certainly would need less "babysitting" when on alert.

JP2323 wrote:Their time can be spent elsewhere, it dosent take a 100 hour a month commitment for a flyer to go sit and have the best pilot in the squadron fly him around, but for a Col. to pull alert he would have 2 alerts a month (4 days gone), T1 (1 day gone), T3/4(1 day gone), a trainer ride (4-5 hrs gone), plus study time for each of the testing event, it dosent take that kind of commitment each month for a flyer to fly.


Once again, your statement seems to be in reference to (current) senior ICBM leaders (being spun-up to ops standards) who have had 4 years on crew, then 12+ years staff/whatever. I'm sure the training commitment would appear less time-hogging for a senior ICBM leader who has maintained their operational requirements from 2Lt on.
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