And the beat goes on...

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Re: And the beat goes on...

Postby MajorG1000 on Thu Nov 13, 2014 1:28 am

I have read all of the comments on this thread to date, and find them most interesting. The contemporaries of those disciplined, fired, or reassigned "for cause" are saying: "Hold on...I knew these guys, they weren't so bad..." Fair enough. I think that many of us from an earlier generation would do much the same if those we knew and served with were in the same boat. However, when we don't have all the facts, it's easy to say someone has been "thrown under the bus" for the good of the organization. What is hard to remember is that is IS NOT an indictment of the entire Crew Force, but of those individuals singled out for their shortcomings. Right or wrong, the military has always been a strong proponent of the "Peter Principle", and change has always come slowly. In the military, the squeaky wheel will just as likely be left along the side of the road, as to be given any lubrication.
Those of us whose time on missile crew commenced over thirty years ago grew up under leadership and a Command Structure that was much different than those on crew today face. I am not saying it was better, in many ways it wasn't, but it was different. There is no way on God's Green Earth that anyone is going to be able to reinstate the way we had it. Change has come, and it has become permanent. I agree with Russ Foos. The system of leadership selection is broken and needs to be fixed. From where I sit I can only shake my head and mumble "what were they thinking?" "We would certainly never allowed those kinds of officers to make the grade in our Missile Wings..." But apparently we did. We grew the guys who became the leaders, who then grew the guys who are now the leaders. The nut doesn't really fall far from the tree at all, and we all share some of the responsibility of where things are today. We also share in the awesome responsibility of never having fired our weapons in anger, and for the fact that 95+% of all crewmembers do, and have done their jobs without embarrassment or foul up. That those who aren't the right fit for positions of higher responsibility have been found and removed is a good thing, and that at least THAT part of the system IS working. This is but a bump in the road...a bumpy road as of late to be sure, but just a bump, none the less.
Let me summarize: This is not an indictment of the entire crew force, but of those individuals who were singled out for their shortcomings. The ruler by which missileers are measured is changing as it has always changed. These guys didn't, or couldn't measure up.
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Re: And the beat goes on...

Postby Batman on Fri Nov 14, 2014 1:25 pm

And SECDEF noticed:

Chuck Hagel To Order Nuke Force Overhaul To Fix Failures
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/1 ... 55722.html

I wonder if this has anything to do with the recent Russian hijinks?
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Re: And the beat goes on...

Postby FL Transplant on Fri Nov 14, 2014 3:29 pm

God bless the AP. They seem to be the only news organization that has any interest in our nuclear forces. They’re doing more to investigate and report on the story than any other organization, to include the trade press that should have been all over this story.
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Re: And the beat goes on...

Postby MajorG1000 on Fri Nov 14, 2014 7:36 pm

I just heard this story on NPR. The way it was presented was that there was only "one wrench used to attach warheads to missiles and it was FedExed between the three bases". Secretary Hagel said that more wrenches have been ordered and each base will have one soon...additionally, each base will be supplied with two of these wrenches. Wow... aren't these wrenches "Certified" and/ or "Critical" Components? How has the IG been able to gloss over this shortfall? It seems to me this would be an action item at the highest level. How do the Wing CCs at each of the bases allow this? Their careers ride on sorties on alert and Alert Rate. How did maintainers remain proficient on the use of these tools?
What if this wrench had broken or been lost in the mail? What if there had been a mass swap out of components reqiuring the missile fleet to overhaul every sortie? JESUS H. CHRIST! No wonder the troops are complaining about poor leadership! FedExing between bases, my ass. If this was allowed to happen, what other shortfalls and maintenance "work-arounds" have been implemented? What other safety procedures have been shitcanned because they just "couldn't be accomplished"? Next we will find out that the Two Person Policy is in effect as long as you know they other person was in the truck with you on the way to the site.
This revelation is no less important than crews cheating on their tests. Throwing money at it may help, but it won't solve the problem. We in here have talked about this before. There has to be a grass roots movement within the Missile Profession to clean house and grow their own. This will be increasingly harder to do with every hit that our Nuclear Forces take. It can't be much fun for those currently in the Missile Career Field; both Operations and Maintenance.
Ok...we have a Republican led House and Senate. Perhaps it is time to write to our members of Congress and voice our displeasure. America's Nuclear Deterrence capability is only as strong as one's enemy perceives it to be. The corollary is also true.
"For want of a nail, the shoe was lost..."
This isn't going to end well.
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Re: And the beat goes on...

Postby ILCS20 on Fri Nov 14, 2014 8:34 pm

Hi Major G,

Timing is indeed, everything - I just explained to a Navy civilian coworker about the certification requirements for some tools used for work on nucleaqr weapons and the related requirement that any aircraft used to transport the wepons had to be certified for that mission (this requirement applied to the aircrews as well). In my memory there is a story about a nuclear weapon maintenance crew at Kirtland, and while working on a warhead one maintainer slid a wrench across several feet of floor to another person who need it -- that was seen by inspectors and as you say it did "not end well".

There is a Mother nJones articl that was posted on Yahoo Groups that told of a squadron commander (I beleive) that would not allow one LCCC to be shutdown due to long standing inoperative sewer line below the capsule. Guess the commander did not want to risk LCC shutdown status going up the chain. His solution was allegedly to have crews defeacte in a cardboard box lined with a plastic bag --- never thought it would come to this. When I was 509th SMS at Whiteman, our squadron commander actually came out to our LCC, crawled beneath the capsule and used an oversized pipe wrench to repair a similar problem when he wearied of CE saying thay could not get out there for some number of days.

BTW: were you in CDB class same time I was in ILCS class? Our class graduated May 1980 and I know there were sister classes running simultaneuosly.

regards,

dick gover
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Re: And the beat goes on...

Postby MajorG1000 on Fri Nov 14, 2014 9:35 pm

Hi Dick,

I was in CDB-63. I don't remember my exact graduation date but we probably overlapped some. Guys in my CDB class (of whom I can remember) were: Myself, Larry Brown, Mark Hurowitz, Jeb Stewart, Pat Timpano, Bill Lindsey and Clint Harris. The other three guys I have drawn a blank on.
You are right, timing IS everything. When we were on crew people still made mistakes, and even gross errors, but they were hammered, retrained, everyone was briefed and we moved on. It wasn't allowed to let fester and reach a critical mass.
Leaders who refuse to let the ststus quo stand in their way of doing the right thing are few and far between...so are those with the knowledge and background with a weapon system to do what that Squadron CC took upon himself to do with a wrench and a big pair of brass ones. In many instances we cannot fault those people put in leadership positions for following the rules; does the saying "If you can follow a checklist, you can do this job" ring a bell?
It all goes around in one big circle; and the circle begins and ends with having a mission. If there is no mission, perceived, or otherwise, you aren't at the front of the line for anything, and everything degrades from that point. The current "Wrench Story" is a perfect example. "We can get by with passing around the one good wrench for now...somebody up the chain will fix the problem..." Yet, nobody did until someone who knew something about Nuclear Certified Components and how that wrench fits into the "Big Picture" got wind of the problem. I am actually surprised that there was anyone left who could catch it. My guess is was a DOD Civilian who was just about to retire who caught it.
We knew when the drug use and cheating was uncovered at Malmstrom that it was just the tip of the iceberg. The fallout is going to last a long time. It's taken decades for Missile Readiness to degrade as far as it has, and it will take time to rebuild it. I have said it will take finding a real Mission to get them back on track in previous comments stretching back to the cheating scandal. I say it again: The Nuclear Forces of the United States need a MISSION to define who they are and what they stand for. Otherwise their service means next to nothing.* It is clear that the men and women manning the capules and turning the wrenches have figured this out.
I am not a big fan of Vladimir Putin, but he may just be brash and outlandish enough to give back to our Nuclear Forces the very mission that they so desperately need.

*When I say "next to nothing" what I mean is that currently crews are nothing more than glorified "Night Watchmen". Without a mission to define why they are sitting alert, there is really no reason for them to do so. And IF someone like Putin or Kim beleive the US is "weak" enough and is willing to test our nuclear resolve, then some 70 years of deterrence will have been for naught. I say for "naught" because you know and I know that every Crew Member will do what they are trained to do and deterrence as it applies to OUR Nuclear Forces will have failed.
God help us if that happens.

Bob Groman
Last edited by MajorG1000 on Tue Nov 18, 2014 3:30 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: And the beat goes on...

Postby FL Transplant on Fri Nov 14, 2014 10:27 pm

Link to the DoD Internal Review and then Independent Review of the “Nuclear Enterprise” (NCC-1700?) Happy reading!

http://www.defense.gov/pubs/
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Re: And the beat goes on...

Postby MMIIICDB on Sat Nov 15, 2014 4:42 pm

It wasn't a wrench, it was a tap & die. I think the secretary just simplified it. And the spears at "leadership" need to be thrown MUCH higher and beyond AFGSC and its predecessor AF Space Command. The WG/CCs having been begging & pleading for years. In fact, I'm willing to bet it was the WG/CCs who brought this up during these interviews. You guys seem to think ALL the blame for the degradation of ICBM operations lays at the O-6 Wing level. I can understand why you would think this since no one above O-6 has been held accountable for ANY of the nuclear related failures since this became visible in 2007, but there's plenty of blame above the O-6 level and beyond the MAJCOM level. Crapping in cardboard boxes is inexcusable and that SQ/CC should be removed from supervising ANYONE...however, look at the examples he's had to follow! There are a TON of "crapping in cardboard box" examples going on in ALL nuclear ops today. If you grow up "making do", when it comes time for you to lead, you will continue that trend. While crapping in a box seems like an extreme case of "making do", I will argue that to someone who has grown up in that environment it probably looked like business as usual.
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Re: And the beat goes on...

Postby MajorG1000 on Sat Nov 15, 2014 9:17 pm

I only know what I have read. It hardly matters if it is a wrench or a tap and die; if it is a critical piece of equipment required for routine maintenance on a nuclear component, it' scarcity should not have been allowed to get to that point. We don't think the blame only lies at the feet of the Colonels at Wing Level. First, All leadership within the Chain of the Nuclear enterprise is responsible and culpable. It has been apparent for years that there has been a widening information and knowledge gulf between the Missile Wings and the Major Commands...whatever acronym they want to use, and it started with the elimination of SAC and the "Big Umbrella" theory of base deployability. I know SAC will never return, nor do I want it to...I just use that as my timeline. Second, the Major Commands (and higher) have distanced themselves from "The Field" and insulated themselves so well with "plausible deniability" it would be next to impossible to pin the fault on any one person to be held accountable. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be held accountable, they should. If your name is on it, you own it. If you don't want to own it, retire. Third, the Wing Level 0-6s and below have plenty of which to be accountable for; whether it is the mishandling of Codes or the PRP Program, Crew Member cheating, or crapping in cardboard boxes. I agree wholeheartedly with your theory of "making do as business as usual". There is no doubt in my mind that you have fingered an important part of the problem.
Finally, once again in my opinion, it comes back around to Mission. Not to "a mission", but "The Mission". If the mission is not deemed important enough to support, it won't be supported, either by word, or deed, and I fear that this is where ICBMs are headed. Yes, there is a big fuss going on right now, but in the real world, are Minuteman Missiles really important enough to our nation's security to keep around? Keeping the world safe from Nuclear Aggression should be Mission enough, but do the Powers that be see that as a reality, or just some sort of lip service to some Cold War era mantra? My guess it's the latter.
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Re: And the beat goes on...

Postby Batman on Sun Nov 16, 2014 4:15 pm

I think you guys are all circling around the same body. I wholeheartedly agree that there needs to be accountability, and it needs to go from the squadron right to the top on Pennsylvania Avenue. The "politicians in uniform" all the way up need to retire and get out of the way.

While the Russians, Chinese, Indians, and even the North Koreans are building up or maintaining their nuclear forces, our leadership is busy studying how to throw some dollars at the problem of a decaying physical plant and a worsening morale deficit to make them go away by 2016, rather than looking at root causes and correcting them for the long term. This is deplorable, but business as usual. Meanwhile, Russian bombers are flying and subs are cruising off the coasts of Alaska, Florida and California. And the Chinese are turning all of WESTPAC into their home waters.

True, SAC is gone, never to return. But in the SAC days there was a sense of purpose, and if a Squadron CC ever made crews crap in a box he would be gone "before sundown," along with the CE CC and a bunch of their staff droids. And possibly their bosses. There was no need to cheat on exams and rides, because the focus was to TEST HOW WELL CREWS DO THE JOB, not amassing Crits and screwing with the crews' heads. And everyone studied because it was necessary to get the job done for the sake of doing a good job, not "getting by." Today, I'm not in play so I really can't say either way.

THE Mission never went away, and won't for the foreseeable future. That needs to be recognized and addressed. The current situation is plain BS, IMO.
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Re: And the beat goes on...

Postby keskiyo on Sun Nov 16, 2014 11:05 pm

While there are specific differences, the Review found a surprisingly similar set of attitudes and issues in the forces making up the three legs of the U.S. strategic nuclear Triad and in the units supporting the NATO Dual-Capable Aircraft (DCA) force. These include a deep sense of pride and commitment in the men and women in the nuclear forces—men and women demonstrating extraordinary resilience under increasingly demanding conditions.


Regardless of the shortfalls they face, whether in manning, equipment, documentation, or guidance, the forces sacrifice their own professional development, family time, and personal commitments to ensure that the mission is accomplished. As the weapons systems and support equipment age, and public support for their mission erodes, this extraordinary effort and sacrifice required of our Sailors, Airmen, and Marines to sustain the readiness of the nuclear forces has become the norm—a norm that, in the judgment of the Review, is not sustainable.


The forces understand the need for a very high standard of performance in the nuclear deterrence mission. The mission is too important to fail, so the forces must be ready at all times to execute their essential mission functions. What the forces see, though, are leaders who demand zero mistakes in every operational and administrative action (an impossible expectation that cannot be realized), often unnecessarily and at the expense of sustained mission performance, primarily to reduce the risk of external criticism.


This reactive approach has led to a widespread substitution of process and procedure for personal responsibility and commander/supervisor responsibility, authority, and accountability. With the longstanding insistence on perfection on all fronts, a culture has evolved in which commanders accept attempts to eliminate the possibility of error in even non-essential processes and procedures through means that are so cumbersome and inefficient that overall risk to the mission increases.


Risk-averse leaders avoid rather than manage risk, whatever the cost to the mission. To avoid risk they create monitoring and evaluation programs that remove the need to make risk decisions. The goal becomes ensuring that their people cannot fail to do everything right. This approach pushes the authority and decisions to do the job up the chain of command delaying the work, undermining confidence, and devaluing the qualification of those performing the mission. Excessive monitoring and evaluating may reduce individual risk of “failures” in the short term, but sustaining this approach damages the mission. Each attempt to stamp out even the possibility of less-than-perfect results requires an increase in the already overly burdensome monitoring, leaving less time and attention available to focus on the mission.


My God...

It's... it's beautiful...
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Re: And the beat goes on...

Postby MajorG1000 on Sun Nov 16, 2014 11:24 pm

Batman is correct; the mission never went away, although I guess it could be argued that many thought it had with the collapse of the Soviet Union. The fact is that as long as any nation on earth has a nuclear capability, and the capacity to strike another, the mission will never disappear. With that being said, there has been a lack of willingness to to address, face and fund the changing mission and it's requirements. With our "on alert" Missile sorties MIRV capability foreshortened, and re-targeted for "God Knows Where", and our Nuclear Bomber force being virtually non-existant, it appears to me we are left standing on only one leg of the Nuclear Triad. I am not conversant enough with the Navy's Nuclear Operation to comment but if they have been hobbled by funding shortfalls, cuts to Research and Development, and mission flacidity as the Air Force has, it doesn't take an abacus to figure out where they are as well.
Warfare is changing, just as it always has. Technology has taken us in directions we could hardly have imagined when I was on crew. We throw our military into regional conflicts where there is no end game, let alone a clear cut victory, only to become tired or bored with the whole affair when we can't claim "Mission Accomplished" after a few months of fighting. Instead of figuring out what our military actually needs and how best to defend our country, politicians of all stripes support pork barrel projects that the military neither wants nor needs, while squandering precious and dwindling defense budget dollars for re-electability in their own districts, or worse; for personal gain. But when has it been otherwise?
In order for the Nuclear Mission...the one of Deterrence, the one we know and support, to be at the forefront of American Policy once again, there will need to be the perception of a threat. Not the thirty minute threat of ISIS, Ebola or another Middle East conflict, but the threat of a Super Power (or Super Power wannabe) who has a Nuclear capability and the gravitas to stand up and say to the United States while pounding their shoe on the table "We will bury you!" I almost thought Vladimir Putin was going to do that this past summer with Ukraine.
The United States was in part founded on the idea that large standing armies were contrary to what a free peoples want or need. I too believe that, as it has the potential to curtail those freedoms we hold dear. Maybe those of us former "SAC Trained Killers" were brainwashed into believing there was a threat where one never existed, or we believe there is still a threat where there isn't one. If there is still a Nuclear threat to our nation from without, one that can be deterred by our existing (or a future) Nuclear Arsenal, we certainly aren't, as a nation, taking it seriously.
I may just be an old fudd with the "SAC Mentality", but I am taking it seriously, and I know you guys are too.
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Re: And the beat goes on...

Postby TerrorOfTucson on Mon Nov 17, 2014 1:34 am

I suspect the unit folks told the various HHQ staffs of this shortage, and nobody would authorize spending money for more, so "You guys just gotta share it."

I'm reminded of that recent visit to a 90th LCC with the crowbar holding the door open--couldn't/wouldn't fix that, and I'm pretty sure the unit was not at fault in that case.
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Re: And the beat goes on...

Postby MajorG1000 on Mon Nov 17, 2014 1:55 am

Keskiyo: You have posted some very illuminating excerpts from the review. Nicely done.

Imagine the untapped power we could have for the nation if we could figure out a way to harness the energy of Curtis E. LeMay spinning in his grave right now...
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Re: And the beat goes on...

Postby MMIIICDB on Tue Nov 18, 2014 9:03 pm

A couple of issues touched on here and the report. The biggest issue I see is who is being held accountable. The report sites micromanagement as one of the leading ills in the ICBM force and the report is spot on. However, while some individuals are prone to be micromanagers, in my opinion, how accountability has been doled out in the ICBM force has driven many leaders to micromanagement. The 91 MW/CC lost his job after a PT rolled off the side of the road. Shortly thereafter, crews and maintainers were being directed on which routes they were to take to the MAFs and LFs. Gen. Welch used this as an example of the outlandish micromanagement in the missile wings. What did he expect? Fire a WG/CC over a vehicle accident and of course those still in command are going to take action to minimize the risk of more! Instead of blaming the WG/CC, OG & MXG CCs and SQ/CCs, place the blame on the person or organization that drove this! That's just one example of the numerous NAF, MAJCOM and HAF level directives/firings/orders that have driven good leaders to do something entirely out of character.

The bigger issue in this whole thing is one that many here have hit upon and one that does not have a real solution at the present time. You can give the current missileers all the money in the world and turn the LCCs into virtual "man caves" but until and unless they believe in THE mission, morale is not going to improve. I was on crew at the end of the Cold War (1991-1994) and while we realized that the threat of nuclear attack was now drastically reduced, we still understood we had a role to play in US Defense Policy. Even the guys that HATED alert (and there were as many then as there are now!) realized that maintaining the security and functionality of the LFs and LCC was an important job. This generation is not likely to believe that, or if they do, are unwilling to accept this role because it doesn't come with any glamor or national recognition. The Nuclear Deterrence Medal is supposed to be a first step in correcting this but, so far, this medal has been received with a collective shrug of the shoulders. Solution? Sorry, I don't have one. You can talk to them until you're blue in the face about how nuclear weapons allow the US "freedom of maneuver" and they want no part of it. I asked a current missileer if he understood how US nuclear weapons allowed NATO to drive the Serbs out of Kosovo in 1999 and he gave me a blank stare. I explained the relationship Serbia had with Russia and how, without nukes, Russia (with nukes) would have been able to hold us at bay. He either didn't understand or didn't care. These guys & gals, simply, do not like the j-o-b.
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